How much WIP is nessecary? Discussion

[MellyMonkey]

**This is the start of a discussion that happened in the current Fungi/Flora competition. Feel free to keep adding your opinions here so we can all agree on what is expected in WIP threads.**



Looking good... what is your moss made out of? And your climbing ivy? And the new mushrooms are made of felt, you say? They look so smooth & shiny... I have so many questions!  

____The Short of It:____
Could you please elaborate a little more?


____The Long of It:_____
The main purpose of WIP photos are to show and share the techniques you are using, so that other people can try it on their own projects. I think this is particularly important in competition threads because the themes not only spark ideas & create interest, they almost act as an index for these techniques. Let's say someone is looking for help doing water effects. Well, we could easily point them to the 'water' competition and they could see 5 different people's takes on how they created water. (And now that competition WIPs will not expire like they did in the old forums, the comps will be that much better of a resource.) In this case, someone could be wandering around looking for vegetation ideas and come across this thread thinking 'Wow, Catdancer made some really nice moss... I just don't know how.'

While you technically are falling within all of the rules of the competition, I think you're missing the spirit of it. And I don't want to just point fingers at you -- this is my vision for what all of TG is about moving forward. I want it to be a resource for people, not just a place to put updates. I will work on getting that idea across in the main rules page for future participants to keep in mind, but your thread is a convenient place for me to hold it until I have time to word it properly.

[catdancer]

(03-07-2015, 12:05 AM)MellyMonkey Wrote: Looking good... what is your moss made out of? And your climbing ivy? And the new mushrooms are made of felt, you say? They look so smooth & shiny... I have so many questions!  

____The Short of It:____
Could you please elaborate a little more?


____The Long of It:_____
The main purpose of WIP photos are to show and share the techniques you are using, so that other people can try it on their own projects. I think this is particularly important in competition threads because the themes not only spark ideas & create interest, they almost act as an index for these techniques. Let's say someone is looking for help doing water effects. Well, we could easily point them to the 'water' competition and they could see 5 different people's takes on how they created water. (And now that competition WIPs will not expire like they did in the old forums, the comps will be that much better of a resource.) In this case, someone could be wandering around looking for vegetation ideas and come across this thread thinking 'Wow, Catdancer made some really nice moss... I just don't know how.'

While you technically are falling within all of the rules of the competition, I think you're missing the spirit of it. And I don't want to just point fingers at you -- this is my vision for what all of TG is about moving forward. I want it to be a resource for people, not just a place to put updates. I will work on getting that idea across in the main rules page for future participants to keep in mind, but your thread is a convenient place for me to hold it until I have time to word it properly.

Thank you for your reply and feedback...greatly appreciated...but now I am confused!

Being a new member and this being my 1st participation in your (COMP: Projects)...I didn't know how to proceed, so I asked some fellow members about the (WIP) posting/display aspect and was told that it was a required part of these (COMP: projects)...and was advised that I should post 7 or 8 photos of the project as it was being built...list the materials that I used...and say a few words about what I was doing. That there was no in depth detailed tutorial required.

If a member posts a question (as has been done on prior postings)...I do my best to answer (and have done so) clearly to the best of my ability.

If the purpose of the (WIP)...as you stated above...is to share the techniques that one uses for the varied steps of a given project...that would be a massive written tutorial that would require multi hundreds of words per each step/topic covered. I went back and checked out the (COMP: I)...(WIP) and did not see any such extended, detailed, explanatory postings on any of the (3) examples of work!

You stated above that I am technically falling within all the rules of the competition...but you feel that I am missing the spirit of it!...May I ask how?
To me the spirit of a/the competition is being given a (title/theme)...afterwhich (3-6-10-etc) members bring that (title/theme) to life via their own vision of interpretation and execution...to me, the spirit is also being an active participant!

I would really appreciate...if you can enlighten me with the proper processes/procedures! I am following the guidance provided by members who have been here much longer than I and the step-by-step photos that I have provided and am providing in my (WIP) are far more detailed than any I have seen in past (COMP: WIP) postings.

MOSS...my moss is made out of shredded foam mixed with desert lichen...colored with Hunter Green (Krylon spray paint)...let completely dry!
SNAKE VINE...is made out of heated and stretched acrylic plastic tubing!
CLIMBING IVY...is made with a (star shaped hole puncher)...each ivy leaf is punched out of silk leaves...a hundred or so are glue on to an area and painted with (3) shades of acrylic paint and stained with (2) shades of artist ink!
FELT MUSHROOMS...the tops are given a coating of white glue (forming a hard surface)...the white glue is painted with red enamel paint...white enamel paint for the dots...when dry, tops are given a clear gloss (Krylon spray) cover.

[Tob]

Answers to these and many other comp questions can be found in the Competition Rules and Process thread in the general Competitions forum.

The second paragraph under the heading Competition Rules holds the key.

[catdancer]

(03-07-2015, 01:46 AM)Tob Wrote: Answers to these and many other comp questions can be found in the Competition Rules and Process thread in the general Competitions forum.

The second paragraph under the heading Competition Rules holds the key.

Thank you Tob!...I appreciate your directing me to the exact paragraph (that you pointed out to me)!

Unless I am completely not understanding the reading of that paragraph...what is stated and outlined therein is exactly what I have done in my (WIP) thread. Each and every photo that I posted has a reference note/statement that describes the item and or step progress. I have not once posted a single photo (just as a photo) without a given notation.

Unless I am completely mistaken (which I could be)...nowhere in the rules/guidelines is there a stated requirement of posting a (How To Do) tutorial for each varied step in the building of a vignette/diorama piece (ie: How to make a stone wall...how to paint a stone wall...how to make moss for a stone wall...how to make mushrooms...etc...etc...etc).

I very much appreciate your guidance and comments on this matter. I feel that I am following the rules/guidelines to the best of my ability and knowledge! What more can I do?

[trollmeat]

I'm not understanding. More than enough info has been posted, and all queries about exact details have been answered.

[MellyMonkey]

catdancer Wrote:If the purpose of the (WIP)...as you stated above...is to share the techniques that one uses for the varied steps of a given project...that would be a massive written tutorial that would require multi hundreds of words per each step/topic covered.

And that's not what I'm saying. How you cut your ceiling tile, or built your wall corner aren't really pertinent to fungi & flora. How you made your mushrooms is significant. I agree that massive tutorials would be horrible for this area. Short descriptions on how you made fungi in a fungi comp would be helpful to the masses.

catdancer Wrote:I went back and checked out the (COMP: I)...(WIP) and did not see any such extended, detailed, explanatory postings on any of the (3) examples of work!

Which is why I said it was not just you and why I want to add something in the main guidelines about this. This is a new system; comps on the old forum worked quite differently. So it's going to take a few cycles of usage to work out all of the kinks. Also, the last comp theme was to have an 'opening' -- it was very generic , much like the popular 1" Base theme from past comps. It can't really be compared the same way.

catdancer Wrote:...to me, the spirit is also being an active participant!

True point. Perhaps it's not a spirit of comps specifically but the spirit of TG as a whole.

catdancer Wrote:If a member posts a question (as has been done on prior postings)...I do my best to answer (and have done so) clearly to the best of my ability.

Yes, but the internet is a fickle place.  Mr. General Lurker is scouring the internet for terrain help & stumbles across TG. He sees threads showing updates that don't describe anything and thinks this won't get me anywhere. So he jumps over to YouTube instead. Most of the time you don't get the to the question/answer part... Bottom line is I'm trying to encourage member growth here.

[trollmeat]

When I was asked about what was required, this was my first line of my reply:
"You do need to have a WIP plog (picture log) in the comp II forum, but it doesn't need to be "step by step" or a Tutorial."
and the last line:
"It seems all reasonably casual, so throw up a WIP thread and get started. You've done some amazing pieces and I'm really looking forward to seeing what you come up with."

...but, if it is possible, this entire discussion should be moved to the Competition Rules and Process thread.

[coxrltw]

Catdancer's original posting left me saying "how the heck did he make those awesome mushrooms out of felt? FELT?"

Catdancer's comments added later:

"MOSS...my moss is made out of shredded foam mixed with desert lichen...colored with Hunter Green (Krylon spray paint)...let completely dry!
SNAKE VINE...is made out of heated and stretched acrylic plastic tubing!
CLIMBING IVY...is made with a (star shaped hole puncher)...each ivy leaf is punched out of silk leaves...a hundred or so are glue on to an area and painted with (3) shades of acrylic paint and stained with (2) shades of artist ink!
FELT MUSHROOMS...the tops are given a coating of white glue (forming a hard surface)...the white glue is painted with red enamel paint...white enamel paint for the dots...when dry, tops are given a clear gloss (Krylon spray) cover."

I think the that if Catdancer had included these comments along with his update photos, then that would have been great. It provides enough information to satisfy the curious browser, but also leaves an opening for more specific questions about techniques and materials. Plus it allows for people to say " WOW, so thats how he made those awesome mushrooms using felt! FELT!"

I think Melly's point is that a simple explanation of a material or technique that is not truly obvious would go a long way toward helping people understand what might seem basic to you but is not readily apparent from the pictures.

[MellyMonkey]

(03-07-2015, 11:14 AM)coxrltw Wrote: I think Melly's point is that a simple explanation of a material or technique that is not truly obvious would go a long way toward helping people understand what might seem basic to you but is not readily apparent from the pictures.

Exactly, thank you.  

Really my original post was just the opinion of one observer/voter who would like to see more and an explanation of why I felt that way. The Flora comp is Trollmeat's domain and there was nothing wrong with what was happening over there.

I do think if we have something in the official write up that people should keep in mind to describe their processes when photos don't tell the whole story, then we could be more efficient in communicating with each other. What does everyone else think about that?

[Tob]

A portion of the Comps FAQ from TG.co.uk:

Why do I have to post WIP?
The creation of a WIP thread with WIPS (work in progress shots i.e. images) are required in order to qualify and serve a number of purposes:

It demonstrates to the Competition Organizer and other members that you are actually making the piece during the qualifying period.
It gives us something to talk about by making comments and suggestions.
It provides material for the Site Administrator to use in the creation of articles for the archives.

How much WIP should I post?
Enough to satisfy the requirements above although different amounts will be needed for each. For example, you may not need to post much to convince the organizer that it qualifies but if you do not post enough to entertain members during the competition then you will probably miss out on some votes and are unlikely to have your work turned into an article.

-=-=-=-

As we can see, a lot of the previous standards for comp entries were based on article creation including the summary requirements (not seen here).  Between proving the entry is being made during the comp and providing BOM info, WIP threads should address any obvious questions about uncommon techniques and practices.  For example, it would probably suffice to say "I drybrushed this" as opposed to giving a tutorial on drybrushing because the vast majority of users already understand drybrushing AND the technique can be learned anywhere.  On the other hand, "I hot-canned these foam circles" is probably not an adequate description of a technique for cookie-cutting foam with a heated tin can that one might invent in a kitchen.

When we would have this conversation on Ye Olde TG dot co dot uk, the bottom line tended to be "give enough info that a typical TG user can build their own from your description".